Talk:Carmen

Adaptations

There was also the 1916 "A Burlesque on Carmen" with Charles Chaplin, Edna Purviance, and Ben Turpin. I don't post or edit articles but I offer this for anyone who wishes to add to what is there. 2603:6081:6606:5410:A994:61FB:14F:3779 (talk) 20:21, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

That's very kind. This is one of numerous skits, and I don't think it needs mention in the article. What do other editors think? Tim riley talk 22:03, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

I agree on both accounts! It is very kind, and it is too minor. Lova Falk (talk) 11:25, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

A suggestion, kind I hope

I would like to propose a small change to the second paragraph:
'and the tragic death of the main character on stage' to 'and the murder of the main character on stage'.
Partly because it is more direct language, but also because the Salle Favart had already seen a 'tragic death' in Auber's Manon Lescaut nearly 20 years previously.Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 18:56, 25 March 2025 (UTC)

• I support that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:35, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
  • Sounds a good idea, I think. Tim riley talk 10:33, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

    I changed it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:16, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

Inaccurate claims about the characterization of Carmen and Don José in the original novella

This article contains the passage, "In the novella, Carmen and José are presented much less sympathetically than they are in the opera; Bizet's biographer Mina Curtiss comments that Mérimée's Carmen, on stage, would have seemed 'an unmitigated and unconvincing monster, had her character not been simplified and deepened'." But the novella actually presents Carmen and José in a more complex light than the opera, as the opera skips over details such as: José's isolation as a Basque man in Spanish society, which contributes to his attraction to Carmen who is another outsider; José sparing the narrator who has shown kindness to him; José taking full responsibility for Carmen's death by burying her body according to her wishes, turning himself in, and arranging prayers for her soul; Carmen urging José in Basque to avoid a conflict with an angry lieutenant; Carmen tracking down José after the lieutenant wounds him; Carmen tending to José's injuries twice, the second time after she says she doesn't love him as much as she did at first; and Carmen bringing José into her gang to save him from execution. How should I correct these inaccurate claims about the characterization of Carmen and José? YukaSylvie (talk) 21:23, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

this would need reliable sources which don't just cherry-pick incidents from the novella. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:10, 2 April 2025 (UTC)

Perhaps we could - instead of presenting it as fact - rephrase it to say that biographer thought so? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:44, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

As we already say clearly that this is Mina Curtiss's opinion I see no justification for altering the existing text. As to the 149 words, above, beginning "But the novella..." – this is pure WP:OR and has no place in the article unless reliable sources can be found to substantiate it. Tim riley talk 07:46, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

Added musical numbers to synopsis

I added musical numbers to the synopsis. Tim riley reverted with "We don't do this" as comment. I believe that the edit [1] improves following the musical content of the synopsis and would like to open for discussion. I personally found the article difficult to connect numbers to synopsis elements when I was checking a few things for a professional (musicological) talk and have certainly seen numbers referenced in many synopses of operas. -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 00:24, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

This is not how we do this sort of thing in Wikipedia, and I suggest we do not so here. Reverting to the status quo ante pending consensus here. These interpolated digits are unhelpful, and none of the FAC reviewers suggested such a thing. Tim riley talk 06:30, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

• I'm inclined to agree with Tim riley on this: the numbers would be confusing to too many readers and the article is better off without them. Looking at other highly rated operas on WP (Appalachian Spring, Thespis, Orpheus in the Underworld, Nixon in China, Noye's Fludde, L'incoronazione di Poppea and L'Orfeo) none of them are numbered, so I'm not sure of the benefit in adding them here. - SchroCat (talk) 06:47, 26 April 2025 (UTC)
• I also don't think that the numbering is a good idea in the plot narration. They hold it up, and are sequential anyway. - There is a complete list of numbers in the article, with titles and roles. - Appalachian Spring is a ballet. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:04, 26 April 2025 (UTC)
  • There is also the practical problem of having to scroll or navigate down through the 4,500 words of the seven intervening sections. A series of anchors and connexions for each number would remedy that, but I'd still be hesitant to emphasise the numbering, because not all editions give the same numbers: the ENO/Royal Opera Opera Guide to Carmen on my shelves gives "La cloche a sonné", for instance, as "No 3: Chorus and Scene" rather than No 4, as here, and "Nous avons en tête une affaire!" as No 14 rather than our 15. The main author of our article, the late Brian Boulton, very properly states clearly where his numbering comes from, and I see no reason to interfere with it, but given that other numberings are to be found I don't think we should make too much of the numbering here. – Tim riley talk 07:23, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

    I agree that having different numbering systems is another reason not to have them in the plot. In the Numbers section, they could be given also (for example in brackets), similarly to different numbering in works by Bach where often two systems are mentioned. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:29, 26 April 2025 (UTC)